JESSICA SHAANAN ON SHAKE THE COSMOS (PART 2/2)
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How to get to know the leadership at your future company?
In this second episode of the conversation with Jessica Shaanan, we dig deeper into startup leadership, what it takes to make the career pivots, and discuss questions such as:
- What are some things to look at when picking up your next company?
- What it takes to convince future employer when you are trying to pivot into a new function?
- What helps people push through the "invisible walls" that exist amongst themselves?
EPISODE TRANSCRIPT
ABHISHEK: Hey, everyone. This is Abhishek from shakethecosmos.com. Welcome back for part two of Jessica Shaanan. Last time we talked about all of the pivots, from coaching business to working for startups. Now we’re gonna get deeper into some of those learnings. Looking at, for example, what is it like to get to know the leaderships of a startup?
JESSICA: I’m in the process of closing that coaching business now, and in the last three months I’ve been doing contract work for another startup that the intention is to hire me on full-time. I took that opportunity because of the leadership. The person that I was speaking to who is the CEO of this new company, I would have been employee number one.
ABHISHEK: Oh, wow.
JESSICA: So long story short, I turned the offer down to ultimately join them full-time, but I would have been employee number one, I would have had equity, he would have given me everything that I asked for. But the reason why I knew he was a good leader, there’s multiple reasons.
One, socially speaking, I could see what his reputation was, not just online, but I knew people who knew him. It was the way he was interacting with me. Everybody who I saw around him really liked him. This man was able to bring together a team that he wasn’t paying yet. It was basically IOU’s.
What that means is, he asked us to bootstrap the company with him for the first few months, until he got enough funding to then pay us. Did he have to do that? No. But what I later found out was that his mentor, who happened to be the founder of Illumina, which you know. His mentor taught him that, he said, “You know, if you want to build a certain type of culture that they like, and really committed people, bring them in this way. See if they’ll bootstrap the company with you. And then reward them very well later on.”
ABHISHEK: Yeah. I think you’re highlighting something really important: That you’re able to tell a future company that you may work at, what their leadership is like.
JESSICA: 100%. I have so much insight to that now.
ABHISHEK: I think a lot of people don’t even think about that piece, when they’re looking at the company, it’s about the offer, the money, the benefits.
JESSICA: That’s the last thing I look at. It’s literally the last thing I look at. The last thing I talk about and the last thing I look at is compensation and benefits.
Of course, I don’t have a family to care for, so it’s really just me. So I completely understand if that’s one of the first things somebody wants to talk about. However, if you’re looking at and approaching your professional career from a personal growth standpoint, for some people, talking about the financial piece and that area is actually going to be their point of growth.
For other people, what they’re doing is going to be their point of growth. For other people, just making the decision to go with the less comfortable position that’s gonna give them more growth is gonna be their point of growth.
Each person is gonna have their own area of looking at for their transition as their point of growth. For me, my point of growth in this case was the decision making. What I mean by that is, deciding whether or not to jump into this startup. Deciding whether or not to jump into the thing that I’m actually jumping into now full-time, long-term. That’s my intention. And, why?
The whole process of decision making can be very scary and it’s an anxiety-inducing activity for a lot of people. Am I making the right decision? And for me, a huge point of growth for me has been making those decisions, why I made those decisions, how I made those decisions, feeling very good about myself with the decisions that I’ve made. Nothing to do with the result. Because the ultimate result actually hasn’t happened yet.
Out of all the work that I’ve done the last three months, and all the work that I’m about to do, I haven’t seen those results. I don’t know what they’re gonna be. But I’m very happy with the decisions that I’ve made to turn down the equity, turn down the great compensation plan for the startup. And to say yes to, what you and I were talking about earlier off the record, which is, I’m now stepping into a full-time sales role that is kind of your standard sales role. People will never not need sales, so that kind of role will always be around somewhere.
But I happened to find what I think is going to be the right company for me, at the right time, with the right training, the right kind of product, all this stuff. But the point of growth for me is what’s to come in that sales role. But also, the decision to take what I’m going to be selling and make it my own.
I already know, I can already foresee, a lot of my growth points coming up. And that’s why I said yes to this.
ABHISHEK: How did you convince this new company… What was the value proposition you were bringing to now do sales?
JESSICA: That’s a great question.
ABHISHEK: And I ran into that, myself, so maybe I’m projecting here. But people have called me sometimes, like, “We’re interviewing, but you don’t have the experience.” So how did you break through the walls on that one?
JESSICA: Thank you. I never even thought about that. It’s a great question. I was really honest with where I was at. But also, they could see… I wish that they were here for you to ask them. But I think that what they saw in me was all of the soft skills and material to grow a great salesperson. You could see that. And I just know that in my bones.
And that’s why this step for me is so important, and that’s why saying no to the startup was really hard, because I’m actually going for a way lower base pay. Obviously, a higher upside, because sales is based on commission, and I have potential to earn there.
But my first year I do not expect to be very exciting in terms of finances. Second and third years after that I expect to be more exciting.
ABHISHEK: So you were honest.
JESSICA: I was really honest.
ABHISHEK: And it sounds like the company that you were going to also saw the value in you.
JESSICA: They did.
ABHISHEK: Just the value that you were bringing in.
JESSICA: Yeah, and as a matter of fact, everytime I called the director of sales to ask her a question about how things were progressing with certain aspects of the application, she was like, “I want you on my team. Can’t wait to have you. I hope you choose us.” It was really awesome. It’s really nice. Like, whoa, I never even thought about that.
ABHISHEK: That’s so great.
JESSICA: It’s really cool, it’s very cool. I’m transitioning now into a sales role, from doing work for another company for the last three months, and it’s this startup company, it’s an AI company. Some very, very intelligent people there.
ABHISHEK: That’s interesting that you mention that you got into the sales role, because whenever I’ve tried to get into different roles and different functions, it’s almost like there’s this invisible wall that exists. And people are like, “Hey, you don’t have experience in this.”
How did you break through that wall? You almost genericized this whole job interviewing process. If someone’s trying to get into a new job and they don’t have experience, if they just bring that part of themselves to the interview…
JESSICA: Mhm.
ABHISHEK: That’s interesting. And what helps people see that?
JESSICA: Well, that part of themselves may or may not actually exist. What I mean by that is, part of what I was doing in Art of Connection was teaching people how to be that sophisticated. And what I mean by sophisticated is, it’s easier to start externally. So it’s easier to start with clothes, and posture, and voice, and all that. Confidence. And as a person uses those external tools, the internal starts to actually develop.
People are always talking about working from the inside out. I actually was working quite a bit from the outside in, and inside out, both simultaneously in my coaching calls. But outside in, in terms of how they projected themselves to the world. So if you don’t really know what that is, if you don’t know what a sophisticated person looks and feels like, you can’t be one. You can’t act like one. If you are one, and you’ve never thought about it, then great. Good for you, you probably had people as you were growing up teach you these things.
But not everybody had the opportunity to learn how to dress, and how to interact with other people from serial entrepreneurs and designers. My mom was in the fashion industry, my father was a designer. He dresses very well. My sister was in fashion, as well, and she’s in interior decorating.
Right now, you and I are in my house. What is your feeling, being here? Don’t make it up, be really honest. What’s your feeling in my house?
ABHISHEK: Yeah. It’s super comfortable. It’s cozy. And there is openness to it.
JESSICA: Mhm. Okay.
ABHISHEK: Yeah.
JESSICA: Does it feel modern or traditional?
ABHISHEK: I would say it feels modern, yeah.
JESSICA: Okay.
ABHISHEK: There’s a touch of traditional, because I saw the Ganesha statue by the fireplace.
JESSICA: Mhm. Your conscious mind is actually labeling those things as traditional, but your subconscious mind and your energy? Is that more traditional? Or is that more spiritual, and connected, and grounded? So you probably would never label… I just said traditional or modern, right?
ABHISHEK: Yeah.
JESSICA: You would probably never label that as traditional. You would probably label it as spiritual.
ABHISHEK: Oh, got it.
JESSICA: Right? The Ganesha.
ABHISHEK: Yes, yes.
JESSICA: And the whole picture that we’re talking about, where it’s comfy, it’s modern, it’s open. Like you said, those were the words you used. Is it clean, or is it kind of messy and dirty?
ABHISHEK: I think it’s cleaner.
JESSICA: It’s cleaner? I’ve got a lot of stuff right now because I’m going away this weekend, that’s true. But generally it’s pretty clean, right? So this is how I want people to feel when they enter my space. And I had the training via, fortunately, my family and the people that I grew up with, and the people that I was able to interact with, to be that when I step out of my house.
When you’re connecting with other people, it’s all about seeing them for who they are. Not from a judgmental lens, but just from a very frank, neutral lens. And bringing your best, your sophistication. If you don’t like the word sophistication, it’s bringing who you are into their world in a way that they can connect with.
Most people can connect with sophistication in a way because that’s what they want.
I have a good friend, he’s awesome, he’s got tattoos all over, he’s a videographer, super artsy guy, very smart. But he will not bend himself for anybody. What I mean by that is, he’s him. Take it or leave it.
Somebody like that could go into any room, walk into any room, it could be a room full of tuxedos and dresses or it could be a room full of just sweat pants, t-shirts, and jeans. Doesn’t matter where he is. If he brings himself into those peoples’ lives and their space in a way that they can connect with, which he can, he’s capable of doing that. Then you can create the same effect that I’m talking about. You don’t have to change who you are.
ABHISHEK: Hm.
JESSICA: But you get to bring everything that you are, and the pieces of you that you are, that you know A, are most appealing to them, and B, would be best to bring. And we got into those peoples’ realities.
If you want more explanation on that, I’m happy to provide.
ABHISHEK: I’m trying to go back to, you’re winding this down a little bit, and Art of Connection...
JESSICA: Art of Connection and winding down, yeah.
ABHISHEK: Okay. What made that decision…
JESSICA: Great question. I’ll be really honest. My level of patience with the work has actually diminished, rather than grown. And while I see it as having a huge effect on peoples’ lives, it is real deep, complicated work. Not everybody who wants it is up for it.
It was either a matter of me changing my clientele, which I could have easily done. Well, not so easily. Easier said than done, but I could have done that. And I could have changed my marketing to appeal to a different market. Or I could take what I know and apply it somewhere else that I can learn from and grow even more skills, and decide do I want to start a business again, or do I want to work for another company?
I decided to take the latter direction and go work for another company. I think, number one, it’s obviously taking some stress off of me. But, number two, I want to see what I can do. I want to see what I’m capable of when I’m working for a company that already has their ducks lined in a row, and already knows who they’re serving, how they’re serving them, all the things that I mentioned earlier about starting your own business. The company I’m going to has that together.
It will be literally the first time in my entire career that I’m stepping into a company that has all of that together. Think about that. I’m 34.
ABHISHEK: It’s exciting, too.
JESSICA: It’s very exciting. And I want to see all of the grind that I’ve gone through since I left college. I want to see the impact that can have on a corporation. I also know that sales was my next step in my own personal growth, and that can come in many forms. It doesn’t have to be in the form of a sales role, we’re always selling, all the time. So I’ve been using my life as a stage for sales.
But I just know that when I have a higher stake in it, it’s gonna have a higher impact on my life. So literally my life with it is gonna be based on how good I do, how well I do in sales.
ABHISHEK: I’m imagining now, a future that’s… the Art of Connection is climbing down, let’s imagine it’s closed, and the sales role has really excelled. So what’s next? What’s next?
JESSICA: After it excels? After I do really well in it?
ABHISHEK: Yeah.
JESSICA: After I kick ass?
ABHISHEK: Yeah, exactly.
JESSICA: And make a ton of money, and get through all the learning experiences I’m gonna be able to get through?
ABHISHEK: Actually, those are all great things. That’s actually next, then.
JESSICA: Yeah. Those learning experiences, for sure. I really don’t know. I know that I have the bug in me to be an entrepreneur. I just know that that’s there, it will probably never go away. What I’m hoping for is one of two things. Either I’m able to use that entrepreneurial spirit and know how to become the best at what I do, or start my own company again. It’s gonna be one of the two most likely. But nobody has a crystal ball, so I don’t know. That’s a long ways away.
ABHISHEK: That is a long ways away.
JESSICA: I have to get good at sales first.
ABHISHEK: That’s a really good point. Sometimes people ask me, “What are you doing this weekend?” And that seems like a long way away, so, okay. Cool.
Anything else you want our viewers to know?
JESSICA: Just because I know your audience, it sounds like they’re typically in transition, or thinking about transition. Part of the reason why I chose sales is because number one, I’ve been getting feedback from people throughout the last at least three or four years, that I would be great at sales. I’ve dipped my toe in it several times, not in this way right here and going all in. But I’ve dipped my toe in it in different ways in that I’ve done sales obviously for my own companies, so I’ve had some experience there.
But when you have that pull toward something, there is an undeniable pull. But I say undeniable as someone who’s been walking that hamster wheel for a few years. It took me two years, at least, to respond to this pull in sales.
I’m just trying to give an idea and a feeling of, what does it feel like to be pulled toward something as the next step that you should take? Or that your heart really wants to take? And what does it look like to actually take it?
For me, it looks like turning down a fantastic offer for one that’s not as good, in the more immediate level. But hopefully I’m heading in the right direction, and it will be great long-term… Not so long term, in the next two years.
And this has happened to me many times, actually, in the last few years. Really, since I left my dad’s company about four years ago. I feel a pull, I feel a pull, I feel a pull somewhere. I felt a pull to leave another startup, the one that I mentioned earlier. I felt a pull to leave my dad’s company. I felt a pull to start these other coaching companies. I felt a pull to start to go into the sales role.
As far as I’m concerned, that’s how you want to make your next decisions. And also, to be fair, I’ve had so much transition. I think, take what resonates with you from this conversation, and don’t take what doesn’t resonate with you. But certainly don’t drop everything you’ve just heard because you disagree with one thing, or two things. Take what resonates with you, because that is the pull. Any resonation is the pull. And use that to make your next decision.
ABHISHEK: Thank you for sharing that. I think that’s really helpful as well. I’m actually just digesting this all too, thinking. All right. Thanks for taking the time today to chat.
JESSICA: Absolutely. Great chatting with you.
ABHISHEK: Hey everyone. Thank you for listening. Please hit the subscribe button. We’ll be back next week.