Build Positive Money Habits with Pedro Moura
“We live in a society that's all about immediate gratification. It takes a lot of discipline. If you don't have that muscle built early on, it's going to be tempting.” -Pedro Moura
What are your financial goals? If your answer is to start your own savings, you just landed on the right spot! Today, I will interview Flourish Savings CEO, Pedro Moura. Pedro and I will talk about the primary culprit behind savings problems and how to get your savings started fast and easy. We will also talk about the digital transformation of money and what we can expect about the future of banks. As the show ends, the tables take an unexpected turn. Can it be more exciting! Tune in and hear fun learnings to take away.
Highlights:
03:32 A Young Visionary with Extraordinary Mission
07:12 What is Money?
12:14 What Makes Saving Hard?
18:09 Money Relationship Check
23:57 The Evolution of Banking
29:43 How to Start Saving
Watch it live:
Quotes:
08:07 “Having some knowledge about money can unlock your dreams and goals. And fully avoiding money can also be bad in your life.” -Pedro Moura
09:38 “We live in a society where saving money means spending less.” -Pedro Moura
10:34 “Access to responsible products is a basic need in the society that we live in. People should be given certain tools to better manage their money.” -Pedro Moura
12:33 “We live in a society that's all about immediate gratification. It takes a lot of discipline. If you don't have that muscle built early on, it's going to be tempting.” -Pedro Moura
18:40 “Money is a group element, you don't make decisions in a vacuum.” -Pedro Moura
20:45 “It was not about putting money away, it was about making spending pattern last longer.” -Pedro Moura
24:45 “Banks are not necessary, banking transactions are.” -Pedro Moura
25:46 “It's not only about the traditional financial service industry, but you're transacting in everything that you do in your life.” -Pedro Moura
30:10 “The best day to start [saving] is today. Don't wait to do it.” -Pedro Moura
30:33 “It's not a goal unless you share it. And money is often a topic that we don't quite like to talk about in our society.” -Pedro Moura
Connect with Pedro Moura:
Pedro Moura is the co-founder & CEO of Flourish, a mission-driven fintech that encourages people to establish savings habits and pay off debt, making savings feel like play. Pedro has a unique range of financial services, product, retail management, technology, and business development expertise. Prior to Flourish, he spent six years (from series D to pre-IPO) at Oportun, a Fintech company that provides responsible loans to help the Latino community establish credit. He led and expanded the retail operations and spearheaded the implementation and growth of the mobile product. Pedro played a key role in scaling the organization from 250 to over 3500 employees.
TRANSCRIPTION:
Abhishek Sharma: Hi everyone, this is Abhishek from shakethecosmos.com. My guest today is Pedro Moura, CEO and co-founder of Flourish Savings, a company that rewards you for saving money. We originally met at UC Berkeley Haas School of Business and became quickly friends. And last time, I remember we were literally singing and biking in Sacramento. And it was like a Sacramento group bike. I'm excited about today's topics. We're going to talk about money, and we're going to talk about savings. And if you're listening for the first time, Shake The Cosmos is a platform that brings you inspirational stories of entrepreneurs who've overcome odds to find their greater mission in life and follow it. And if you're listening, hit the follow or subscribe button so you don't miss out on weekly episodes. And again, if you want to hit me up, just DM me on Shake The Cosmos on Instagram. I'm excited to have you on the show. Thanks so much Pedro for joining.
Pedro F. Moura: Very excited to be here. I had forgotten about the whole experience of Sacramento. Beer tasting while on the bicycle, that was fun.
Abhishek Sharma: Yeah, unheard of, like now it seems like ages ago. How was that possible? Awesome. Well, for the viewers and listeners, just give me a little bit background about you for the listeners.
Pedro F. Moura: Happy to do that. I'm Pedro. I am the Co-Founder and CEO of Flourish, and we are redesigning the way individuals interact with money. I am originally from Brazil. I've been in the States since I'm 15 years old. And similar to many other immigrants, many other Latino immigrants, my family came to the US to live the American dream. We landed in the Silicon Valley without knowing what the heck the Silicon Valley was. My mom cleaned houses, did all sorts of odd things to provide me and my little brother with better education. And I'm very fortunate for the sacrifices that she has done to put myself in a position to have a great education and pursue a career in fields that I didn't think would exist. So I studied Economics International Relations at the University of California Davis. Trying to put my own oxygen mask on, I started my career in traditional finance and wealth management at Morgan Stanley. I quickly realized it was so detached from my own reality of living here as an immigrant growing up in the Northeast of Brazil, that was intellectually challenging, but really detached to the people that I wanted to serve. So I then transitioned to chase on the retail side where I got to interact with everyday humans, if you will. But it was quite frustrating that the products there were not designed for everyday individuals, and I was just simply a number in a very large organization.
So I transitioned to do a startup that was doing small dollar loans to help the Latino community in the US establish credit in the US. And I was very fortunate to be in the right place at the right time. I joined Opportune, which is now listed on the NASDAQ as a publicly traded company at around Series C, Series D, where when I started, it was like 200 people. By the time I left for business school there were 3000 people. We used to do 40,000 loans a month, you had 40,000 loans a month. So it was an incredible experience as a young professional of a venture backed organization with a strong mission that grew really quickly. That allowed me to have this amazing career.
And then I went back to business school where we met. And I had two hypotheses when I was in Business School. One was this idea of creating financial service products for people that are starting out their financial journey, in addition to responsible credit. How can I help people better manage their money? And then the other part of the hypothesis is the more idealistic side, if you will, of how could I help back the places that I came from where most of my family is, and look back to emerging markets, specifically Latin America, specifically Brazil. So with those two thesis, I started exploring, I met amazing people during my MBA. One of them is now my Co-Founder, Jessica Eting. And from an innovation class, we never looked back. We raised a little bit of funds, started a product in the US as a savings account using game mechanics and behavioral science to help individuals save and have since pivoted the business to now licensed our technology to financial institutions, retailers and Fintech to better engage with their end users and help them build positive money habits. So that's a little bit about myself, and a quick journey of how Flourish started.
Abhishek Sharma: I love it. I hear the evolution of Pedro, and I hear the evolution of the journey of the career and the startup world as well. So thinking about your upbringing, how did that influence your ideas about money? I think about money in different ways, so how did that work for you? And how do you define money?
Pedro F. Moura: Money is like, you cannot help but think that money is present in everything you do in your life, right? But money, my family was always a means to do something. So it was a vehicle to do something. And to us, my mom gave up in life as an intrapreneur, as a business woman there to start over and perhaps make more money doing something else. But she just saw this as a vehicle to allow for me, my brother to have a better future. The similar way I see money in my life. I started my career, it meant that I wanted to provide for my family and make sufficient money. But then you get to a stage in your career, yes, money can always, it's never sufficient and you can always make more. But to me, it's always about like, what is it that you do with it? What are you seeking to achieve, because you can never be fully satisfied. So my own life, what it led me to do a lot of the work that I do is having some knowledge about money can unlock your dreams and goals. And fully avoiding that money is not good can also be really bad in your life. And it can cause a lot of stress in both ways, if you forget about it, or if you're fully devoted to all about money. So that balance is hard to strike in anything of your life. But one of the things that led a lot of the decisions that I've made in my career has been, look, the system can be quite complex. Is there enough people thinking about providing responsible products to individuals that carry a journey similar to mine? And to me, the immigrant community in the US that was learning about the financial system, now it means that it brought a scale of like, can I support banks and institutions in emerging markets, which is much different today. But can you have products that actually allow people to achieve their dreams and goals without being so complex?
“Having some knowledge about money can unlock your dreams and goals. And fully avoiding money can also be bad in your life.” -Pedro Moura
Abhishek Sharma: Yeah. I think it's interesting, you say that the money is complex, and the systems are complex, do you feel like that's, in some ways part of the struggle here, the dollar, or the pesos, or the loan is so easy to look at, but maybe just not a full understanding of the complexity around it?
“Access to responsible products is a basic need in the society that we live in. People should be given certain tools to better manage their money.” -Pedro Moura
Pedro F. Moura: Any sort of social issues, right? It's not as simple. It goes a lot deeper than the tool itself and the money. So we can get into philosophy really quickly. But I guess if you just simplify, look, we live in a society that saving money means spending less life, saving money means that you go to the store and spending less on anything that you do with one click. You can make purchases and your money goes away. People are trying to control your paycheck at the top with loans, all sorts of products. And we have put a lot of great brains in our society to get people to take on more loans, why can we have more brains or people designing products for people to build better lives versus just simply getting into a debt trap. And that can be philosophical because that's how the system works. But that is a type of issue that I wanted to tackle and at least put some of my own brainpower to say, look, it's not all about getting the people in the trap, can you have a more sustained and balanced life. And of course, you live within a system, so you can only affect pieces of it to make it change. But essentially, that's why both Jessica and I wanted to join this. We believe access to responsible products is a basic need in the society that we live in. And people should be given certain tools to better manage their money.
“We live in a society where saving money means spending less.” -Pedro Moura
Abhishek Sharma: Yeah. And it's a real trap too. Looking at some of the facts here, I think from what I read, the financial vulnerability in America is like a real problem. So with that, there's over 138 million people struggling financially and less than half of adults with less than $400 saved. So a simple visit to like the emergency room, or a broken car transmission forces individuals to borrow money. So if you found some trends, you've been like living--
Pedro F. Moura: Sorry to say this, but can we double click on that. Because most people that don't register $400 saved. Like, half of Americans do not have $400 saved in case of emergency. That means that Maria may clean your house and may not be able to get to work if her car breaks down without having to get a payday loan to get there.
Abhishek Sharma: I'm glad we're double clicking on that. I think it's something easy to gloss over, really to think about it. And also, I love that you humanize it as well. It's a person you might know, literally, it might be somebody in your social circle.
Pedro F. Moura: Yeah, that's right. That's right. Sorry, I interrupted your question.
Abhishek Sharma: Yeah, yeah, totally. And I think, so let's say, as you're working through this, this is definitely like a philosophical thing for me. I always think of money as a social construct, but it is very, very real. And people don't have savings. So why is that? What have you found?
Pedro F. Moura: You can also go into kind of like two directions. You can say like, look, Latinos in the US make sense of the dollar of other folks, there are systematic challenges are the type of work that you do. But maybe we shouldn't go there. Let's leave that conversation to folks that do all the sort of social work. But if you look at the other end of life, we live in a society that's all about immediate gratification, like you're talking about. Everywhere you hit ads to sell you things, college education costs a lot of money, and it takes a lot of discipline. If you think about this idea of putting money aside, you're foregoing something today for something that you're going to do later. And if you may not be making enough money, you don't have the discipline, and you're bombarded from all ends. If you don't have the discipline of putting money aside, it's really hard. Really, really hard. And it's really convenient to get a credit card, to get it out alone, to pay installments. So building that discipline can be really hard. And if the system is made, perhaps to get you to get a loan and get a second loan, and a third loan because you make a lot of money that way becomes really challenging. So if you don't have that muscle building early on, it's going to be really tempting, and some people only learn after making a couple of mistakes.
“We live in a society that's all about immediate gratification. It takes a lot of discipline. If you don't have that muscle built early on, it's going to be tempting.” -Pedro Moura
Abhishek Sharma: I feel that you know that mistakes can be made at all levels within the lower class, middle class, upper class. I think of my own example where I remember getting like my first job. And thankfully, I was paid a while, and I was like, you know what? I'm gonna go buy a really nice car, I'm gonna go buy like a Porsche Cayenne. And one of my mentors gave me a book, and it was really insightful to read about this book how people viewed money as time. I think your point around knowledge is huge. And sometimes, you don't even realize that there is this other way of thinking about money.
Pedro F. Moura: That's right. And I think goes back to kind of like, what do you want to do with money? What is it that time is finite, that we are here, we all have goals and aspirations that we want to achieve. But what is the type of life you want to carry? And what does that mean for [inaudible] for you in order to get there? There are people from our research, you see people that make minimum wage and they're really good at putting money aside and have that sense of security. They have something that they want to be called upon in their family if someone comes up with an emergency and is the one to provide it. They'd be making minimum wage, and they have that. But you see people with triple figure salaries, making a lot of money and still living paycheck to paycheck. So this is not all about different social status. You see people having similar challenges, we specifically have decided to tackle creating products and incentives for someone that's starting out their journey, or perhaps don't necessarily have as much sophistication on how his system worked and help them get started. But the problem goes up and down the ladder in a lot of ways.
Abhishek Sharma: Yeah. And this piece is like how it goes up around up and down the ladder, and also like, so when you say you're helping people that are just starting the journey, like what is that like? Who are those kinds of folks we're talking about here?
Pedro F. Moura: So we started as a company, we started as like, think of a digital piggy bank, like a digital savings account that we incentivize individuals to save and keep money using game mechanics and incentives that you would see in a lottery. Things like make a deposit and keep your money there and a chance to win a prize. Things like, come back and check your accounts to earn a chance to win a prize. So we started to do injections of dopamine, if you will, as you're taking small steps to your finances and breaking it down into smaller steps that could be achievable. So we started, that was our initial product, and it was targeted towards individuals that were called first generation financial citizens. They were like young adults in their early 20's. They had some sort of debt, but they were starting to make decent money and wanted to start saving even before thinking about investing, having a rainy day fund. So we started there, we built a case study that our mechanics helped people save on average 600 to $800 by being with us for a period of time, and people that were not saving at all.
And then we started to look at that and saying, well, we have a couple 1,000 users doing that, can we abstract that and perhaps licensed to banks that have those users, that the banks want to engage and interact with them in a digital world. And can we license those mechanics to financial institutions? So we signed a contract with one of the most renowned financial institutions in the world called BancoSol out of Bolivia, and they have been one of our first implementations of this software. And there are a lot of similarities with this consumer that we tested in the US, of course, different markets, different incomes, but it has similarities I've seen. They make an income, they have some debt, but they are starting to build a little bit of a rainy day fund. So a lot of the consumers that we work with are individuals, they're really starting out their journey. We may not talk about people here that have thousands and thousands that are looking for investment vehicles. We're talking about people that may have lived paycheck to paycheck, and they're starting to break out of that habit.
Abhishek Sharma: And as you're going like, and that's so exciting that you're finding these trends globally. But are you also finding that it's different how people think about money and savings? As you know, some of your customers are now international.
“Money is a group element, you don't make decisions in a vacuum.” -Pedro Moura
Pedro F. Moura: Yeah. We look a lot like, I think I would talk in two different ways. People, human behavior like everybody wants to be recognized, wants to be rewarded, you brief steps into small pieces. And that's human nature. But of course, there's the pieces of localization. So we've worked with institutions in the US, Brazil and Bolivia now. And what we see is that in Latin America, we see that money is, especially in emerging markets, much different than the US. But money is a family, it's a group element. You don't make decisions in a vacuum. The US, you see a lot of individuality like that. The reasons, the goals that you have, some of the reasons why you want to put money away, yes, family is involved. But sometimes, an individual first, and family is second. A lot of their research that we've done in Latin America, it has these elements, it's like so ingrained into the family pieces. And what does that mean for us in terms of like, as you start to nudge individuals to spend differently, or nudge individuals to start to put money in a way, and the elements around like it's not only about you, it's beyond you really resonating with individuals. In Latin America, but at the end of the day, people want to be rewarded, they want to be recognized. So we see a lot of similar elements of how you leverage data to nudge individuals in a certain way and make recommendations, mixing both the gamification aspect but also the intelligence behind turning data into insights and recommendations.
Abhishek Sharma: And how is this relationship changing a little bit now with COVID, people's relationship with money? Or what are you seeing in your industry at least?
Pedro F. Moura: COVID was a big reality check to a lot of us, we sell two things through the data. We sell people that were not affected in terms of income, started to save a lot more money, started to put a lot more money away. So you started to see transactions that used to be $15 savings transactions, it ended up being 30, 45 when people were contributed, because that was reality. Before, it was this abstract thing that was like, you may have an emergency in the future, or this may inevitably happen. But it happens shocks to shock the US, specifically, this was a shock that was global. And we're starting to see people that had money saved up more. Like security meant a lot to a lot of people. And then of course, there are the people that perhaps lost their jobs. And at that time, it was not about saving or putting money away, it was about making their spending pattern last longer. So we also saw it, it's very unfortunate in places that we cannot help as much as organizations of folks that lost their jobs and now, we're in trouble. Our industry, what happened, and not to bore the listeners, but what has happened is during the downturn that happens every 10 years, you put a pandemic on top of that, that lending gets shut down to a lot of people. Like the lenders or banks stopped lending during the pandemic because they don't know how the portfolio is going to react. So it was quite devastating to see some of the consumers that we have worked with support that lost their job and did not have responsible lending products available to them. So that's really when you see the power of like, oh, man, this system that we live in, it needs intervention from the government, or some sort of check or reimbursement from the government.
“It was not about putting money away, it was about making spending pattern last longer.” -Pedro Moura
Abhishek Sharma: Yeah. I mean, it's definitely sad. The whole thing, of course. I mean, it's interesting to see what you're seeing in the data, like how people saving is impacted. Of course, the government's doing different things in different countries, and I've heard various opinions about that as well.
Pedro F. Moura: Let me build a little bit more on from that perspective. That's the individual end user, perhaps of our technology. But from banks, it has really magnified some of the poor experiences we had digitally in the banking industry. So like COVID really drastically done digital transformation in a lot of industries, but it also from a business perspective. It was really positive from the perspective of like, look, banks could not do it by themselves, they started to license more of a technology, like the pipeline a number institutions specifically in Brazil where you had that population of nearly 40% of people without bank accounts, give or take. And we saw about 20 million people that did not have accounts because of the government incentives ended up being digitized or being banked because of the checks that were given digitally. So you also saw this massive change in behavior, and it's really interesting to see how that will play out like, can you sustain those individuals visually? Can you service them in a way that you never could before? Similar to the way that you see your grandma using Zoom, now you have individuals that use digital financial service products doing tha. So it's also quite a massive human level, society level experimentations happen under our eyes.
Abhishek Sharma: I think that's a longer term change, that's gonna be a lasting, this digital transformation piece. I'm hearing about Korea and I'm meeting people who are used to buying things like Bitcoin, like little kids who know everything about Bitcoin. And then I tell them like, and you ask, like many people don't know what it is, there's confusion around it, there's not trust around it. So that's just an example. But as this long term change that you're saying is happening, what kinds of things might change the game here in the future?
“It's not only about the traditional financial service industry, but you're transacting in everything that you do in your life.” -Pedro Moura
Pedro F. Moura: I think it shows us this way, banking was all about trust. In the old days, you have individuals that you did transactions with and so because you trust that person. Or like you can use the Wells Fargo, they have the best. I don't even know the word for it, but it's all about trust. You do business, you lend to people that you trust. And then the banks have their own charters so they had almost this oligopoly until a lot of it, and then you see the evolution of banking that you can see signals of this. You see Starbucks now have almost like this prepaid card that you put money into to buy your coffee, you have Uber giving prepaid cards to the drivers, you have Apple giving their credit card. So they keep continuing that thread that banks are not necessary, but banking transactions are so into that line. Who are the banks of the future that they look like? Could Disney have their own type of accounts because they have trust with the consumer, they know the individual well, could you have accounts, they're out of the banking system. And I think that's a trend that's happening under our eyes, this modularization of finances and the personalization of finances also. So think about that your bank is not your bank of today, could it be Google with a different element, but could it also be a school that knows you well and can provide you banking products? And I think at that level, it's just like with precise medicine. If you know individual wealth, you have access to the data from different ways, can you make recommendations or nudges, or send people into a direction that they can make better decisions within their life? And I think that to me, it's really exciting to just see that it's not only about the traditional financial service industry, but really how you're transacting everything that you do in your life. And how from that data, you can help enable you to make better decisions. I think that that's pretty fascinating to think about a long term vision.
“Banks are not necessary, banking transactions are.” -Pedro Moura
Abhishek Sharma: I think that is fascinating. And just thinking about the technology, I always sometimes like to think what is the technology that is going to trump me when I get really old? Like, when my parents figured out how to use text messages, I was like, oh, this is going to be a life changing event. So it's wonderful too, I am actually excited about this personalization from a healthcare perspective. I've been in healthcare for a while, its big deal to be this personalized, it's kind of fun to hear the personalization and financial industry that might start to take place.
Pedro F. Moura: And build on that. Look, with financial data, everybody, like where you're transacting, what are you spending, how often and then you connect that whole like, and base of not being good at, they only use that data to underwrite you to, can you get a loan, or can you not get a loan? But put that data combined with other data to make your recommendations around your life, I think that's pretty fascinating. So in a similar way that you have Netflix inside of every TV, could you have elements of money recommendation automation/recommending things that perhaps you don't even know about yourself? Like a Netflix TV show. But could they be recommending you things that you may want to do, are you able to do it? Let me guide you on how to do it and automatically get you there. I think that's pretty fascinating. There's still a long way to go and getting data from different places, but we're not far from it.
Abhishek Sharma: I love it. I love getting these inside looks into what might be happening, and I'm excited. I think I can't wait until like Netflix pops me, pop something on the bottom right of my screen, by the way. Click on this. And then about Flourish as well, what are some things you're excited about that are just coming up that rise in here?
Pedro F. Moura: We were a very early stage organization. Like we were two and a half years old. We had previously raised funds from angels and had been part of accelerators and are just now closing our first institution around. We're our team will go from being a team of 10 and super scrappy, serving a couple of financial institutions to a team of 18, 20 people in the next year. So looking forward in terms of doubling size as an organization and having a little bit more funds to fulfill the mission and serving a larger number of people. So we're very excited to embark from this next phase of their organization both growing from the number of people that work within the company, but also to the number of people we are serving at the end of the day with our product. We have fully pivoted to focus on B2B on serving banks has our customers so we're also very excited as an intrapreneur. To learn more about enterprise sales and working with very large institutions, they're often not known to be early adopters, but co-creating and having the power of distributing your products to millions of people. So quite excited for that. Yeah, more than anything is a new phase as an entrepreneur. You'll go from being a couple of founders with a few folks that believed in you to now having investors to having a set of a couple dozen people that are there with you and building the mission so quite excited for that.
“It's not a goal unless you share it. And money is often a topic that we don't quite like to talk about in our society.” -Pedro Moura
Abhishek Sharma: You're just living and breathing it man, this is amazing. So let's say someone is listening right now and they're kind of fired up about this money and saving stuff, like what kinds of things someone can do to just kick start their savings?
Pedro F. Moura: Just do it. As simple as that. Anything just working out, we're going to start this day, and we're going to do that. We all have a, perhaps a student loan that you need to call , renegotiate and refinance. So we have something that's been in the back burner that we were supposed to do, but have not gotten around to do it. Yes, it can be intimidating at times, but it will pay off. So the best day to start is today, if not yesterday. Don't wait to do it. So if you're thinking that either, and if you have the savings, you have a rainy day fund that you already have six months of an emergency, if something happens, now it's time to look into different investing products, and we all have a friend that can hold you accountable to it. So I think that's also really important. It's not really a goal unless you share, you make it public. And money is often a topic that we don't quite like to talk about in our society. So finding a trusted partner that you can truly share some of your goals, ambitions or challenges, I think that's also really important.
“The best day to start [saving] is today. Don't wait to do it.” -Pedro Moura
Abhishek Sharma: Well, thank you so much, Pedro. And again, if you're listening right now and you want to save, just do it. And Pedro, I really appreciate your time. And this has been a wonderful conversation.
Pedro F. Moura: It's been really fun. And I hear you in an intrapreneurship or word, you haven't told us about that, maybe next episode, or?
Abhishek Sharma: Oh, yeah, that's a really good point I have. And that's a great idea. Actually, we should talk about that in the next episode. I'm here in Korea, receiving the benefits of the Entrepreneurship Award. And you talked about some accelerators. And I agree. I think these kinds of support systems can be really nice when you're in this early stage nurturing. So I'm excited.
Pedro F. Moura: What have you been working on? What's the concept about, shares with us?
Abhishek Sharma: Totally. I mean, I used to have a nine to five job, and I wasn't feeling as fulfilled. So I decided to talk about just the things I was really good at. Really good at product management, really good at some of the sales techniques, really good at medical device based healthcare. I just started talking about it, people started listening to it. And then my friends were like, why don't you do workshops around this? And I'm like, Okay, I'll do that. And then people started paying money to see me talk. And I was like, this is a new thing. Alright, we'll double the amount of tickets and money. And then that happened too. And now, what I'm doing now is online workshops. So I have some coming up at UC Berkeley next year. Also just just podcasts, having fun while I'm traveling. So I just share my stories as well. It's turned into an inspirational platform. First people, entrepreneurs and stories. The next thing I'm working on with this accelerator here is to launch a subscription based model. So that's a new thing as an artist, and it's called Patreon. So that's coming soon. So that's a little bit about me.
Pedro F. Moura: Thank you for allowing me to play host for a second. It sounds like a couple of things here. One is putting yourself out there and sharing your story as one, start finding a problem that people really want to pay for, which you have. And now, the third piece is finding a repeatable process to scale. So it's really cool. I'm checked to do here a little bit of this and I'm excited to hear more about the journey.
Abhishek Sharma: Well, you're not the first one that ends up asking me about it. Usually doesn't get recorded, but I'm excited. This will be fun to watch and listen to. Awesome. Well thank you so much, Pedro.
Pedro F. Moura: Likewise, thank you.